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I think this means I won

At the most recent Chicago Alt.NET meeting (Sergio posted about it here), I was talking with various people when someone (I think it was Aaron) mentioned that Scott Bellware had issued a tweet/twit/whateveritscalled at some point that I be drummed out of Alt.NET and have all of my blog comments deleted.  And apparently I had a number or something attached to it.

Since I hate Twitter (to me, it is the 'web 2.0' version of IRC...when I first got online in the late 90s, I made the mistake of going to a philosophy IRC and tried to, you know, talk about philosophy...IIRC (not to be confused with IRC), the members knew nothing about philosophy, wanted nothing to do with discussing it, and wanted instead to talk about getting laid...sort of similarly, the first time I heard about Twitter, I logged on and found tweets/twats/whatever along the lines of 'I like cheese'...okay, that's nice, goodbye), I had not known this.

Using various search tools, though he had changed his twitter name, I was able to find the following:

"alt.net community craven behavior #26: unwillingness to kick jdn to the curb"

and

"when will the alt.net community just kick jdn off the lists and just delete his blog comments"

Scott has always been the most morally bankrupt members of the alt.NET community.  The great thing about this is that his lack of stature has caused him to do things that actually help the greater community at large.  Since his blog is offline, I can't link to it, but the most important thing to him has been to say things like "Hey, look at the the things I've done for the community, like my DevTeach sessions, and my work at organizing Alt.NET OpenSpaces conferences", etc.  All of which is true.  He does it (apparently) because he is an insecure gloryhound, but since the end result is a positive for the community, that's fine.

Anyway, besides all that, his twoots/twatters/whatever are not quite sources of pride, but pretty close.  He's always been incapable of debating serious points.

In a similar vein, people like Jeremy Miller and Chad Myers are always pretty quick to descend to insults when they aren't agreed with (Chad I understand, Jeremy I don't...my first encounter with him was when he responded to a question about how to sell Agile on a fixed bid project with a 4-5 paragraph response that was above and beyond what I expected, really very detailed).  They really seem to think that when I disagree with them that I'm just trolling. 

If I wanted to troll someone, I would login to a Washington Capitals website and ask about trading Ovechkin for Sundin or something (if you don't follow the NHL, just accept that this would be a stupid suggestion).

On a vaguely related note, the EF team asked for input on how to implement POCO in v2.  Not surprisingly, none of the 'thought leaders' of Alt.NET decided to contribute.  They were all hot and bothered about creating the 'No-Confidence' vote, but when given the opportunity to contribute by the EF team...loud silence.  Not surprising.

So, anyway, people can delete what they want to delete, if they want.  I extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to do a podcast or anything like that.  I won't hide in the weeds or call for things to be deleted. 

posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:19 PM Print
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# re: I think this means I won
Jon Limjap
8/19/2008 10:08 PM
And this is why I left the ALT.NET mailing list. Certainly tired of pissing contests in my inbox.

I'm still on twitter though. I find it easier to manage than the ALT.NET list, which I have no control over.
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# re: I think this means I won
Brian
8/20/2008 6:55 PM
You are one of the handful of ALT.NET people that I truly like.

For some reason you have the ability to think outside of the box and not follow the rest of the herd like a mindless drone.

It's actually worked out quite well for me that so many in the ALT.NET community have a very elitist behavior and act so condescending of anyone who doesn't agree with how they think the right way to right software is. It makes it much easier to get them to look at what I have to offer.

But then software is an art; not a formula - and those who've wrote software long enough have learned how those formula's fall apart when something new is introduced down the road and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

I think the problem is that by discouraging disagreement and encouraging conformity the ALT.NET community has become very inbred and it shows in the blogs:

'I just bashed Microsoft because they're idiots'
'Good job so and so!'
'Yeah you sure showed them'
'Microsoft should just let NHibernate tell them how to write software'
'ALT.NET are the gods of programming, all shall bow to our might!'
'If it's not DDD it's crap. DDD is the only way to write good software. MVC is the only way to write a web app. All those hundreds of thousands of successful companies who have web sites written without MVC are just bloated maintenance nightmares.'
'Look at those fools using session - what a moron!'
'Use MSTest? It's inferior, those million or so developers who use it without a problem with the same frameworks I use like NMock and Rhino Mocks just don't get how to do true testing'.

Okay...so I got carried away...but how can I not when you get these people who stop public blogging and only send out an email? That's so lame. (I'd like to use strong words, but trying to be mindful of the kids). Or giving a 'vote of no confidence'. Whatever dude...when you put Microsoft out of business, let me know.

It reminds me of those dorks in high-school who got stuffed in their lockers but would get together every other night to play D&D in their mom's basement and just rant on how stupid everyone and secretly telling themselves at night 'I'll show them someday! I'll show them all!'.

Thankfully there is you, and quite a few others that really 'get-it' - but like Jon - I think you guys are falling off by the dozen.
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# re: I think this means I won
jdn
8/20/2008 7:14 PM
I appreciate the compliment.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are people who accept and practice techniques/designs/patterns/etc. who just don't blog about it. They just do it.
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# re: I think this means I won
Brian
8/20/2008 10:11 PM
Well said sir.
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# re: I think this means I won
Michael Hall
8/27/2008 1:23 PM
It can’t be worse than the Rails and Apple communities. I have never seen the level of vitriol and elitism in Microsoft-related communities as I have seen in those two.

I *really* like RoR. I *really* like my wife's iMac. I even considered doing a full-conversion of my career track onto RoR and Apple-based development. What turned me off from that track? It was the overwhelming condescension and arrogance of *most* (not all) of the members of its community.

I hope the ALT.NET group doesn't appear the same way to people who are considering adoption of some of its ideas/tools/methodologies only to turn them away based on personalities.
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# re: I think this means I won
Jeremy D. Miller
9/8/2008 5:32 AM
@jdn,

I know your proud as punch about your PhD, so I'm assuming that you've heard a version of this phrase:

"Take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter out of someone else's eye"


I won't bother defending Bellware, but have you considered your own behavior? Your only participation in any conversation is to try to poke someone in the eye, usually by taking quotes out of context or repeating facts you don't seem to understand. I've usually found you to be a nearly useless participant in the greater conversation. For you to criticize anyone else is rank hypocrisy.

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# re: I think this means I won
Kyle Baley
9/8/2008 9:07 AM
Congrats on your victory. What'd you win?
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# re: I think this means I won
Scott Bellware
9/8/2008 9:25 AM
I went up to Redmond for three days to work with the EF team on understanding the design issues with v1 and to do some ideation on v2. I taught a TDD and design workshop while I was there. Greg did a day of DDD with them on the following day. We did this for free, and for myself, taking a loss on income for that week. This isn't likely something you've been privy to because it simply would have been in bad taste to make a big issue out of it and compose some kind of Palermo-esque, "I'll be Teaching the EF Team How to Design - Level 100" post.

I do many more things in the community than only those things you're aware of. One of which is to encourage the folks who can muzzle you and who sometimes regret that they didn't, to do so now.

I'm still a community organizer, and I'm still making opportunities for other people - and that, not notoriety - is what I'm in it for.
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# re: I think this means I won
jdn
9/8/2008 9:34 AM
@Kyle

It's a Chia pet in the shape of....oh my God, that's gross.

jdn
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# re: I think this means I won
jdn
9/8/2008 5:34 PM
@Jeremy

I've worked with enough people within Alt.NET to know that your opinion isn't unananimous. You are entitled to have it of course. Some people can't tell the difference between a poke in someone's logic and their eye. <shrug>

I'm curious if you could give a specific example of when I took someone's quote out of context. I'd be happy to retract in such a case.
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# re: I think this means I won
jdn
9/8/2008 5:43 PM
@Scott

The 'Bellware Driven Design' video thing? Yeah, that was out there.

I think your actions and words over the years speak for themselves. That as a byproduct the rest of the community benefits is gravy.


"One of which is to encourage the folks who can muzzle you and who sometimes regret that they didn't, to do so now."

LOL. Knock yourself out sweetheart. I'm sure with some you'll succeed.

Game, set, match.
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# re: I think this means I won
MNike
9/8/2008 9:12 PM
I think you should join Norm.Net:

http://keithelder.net/blog/archive/2008/08/29/Dear-Joe-Irsquom-NORM.Net.aspx

Although Keith posted it as a sarcastic / joke of a post (read the previous links), I think he's onto something.

Mick
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# re: I think this means I won
Stan
9/8/2008 9:35 PM
They still love to talk about jdn:
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=jdn

... and those are only the tweets with "jdn" in them, most of them talk about "him".

I think they find you threatening because you have a difference of opinion. Most of alt.net seems to have the same inferiority complex.
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# re: I think this means I won
Scott Bellware
9/8/2008 10:59 PM
No, not the video, and not anything you or any save a few had privy to. The video was an evening event that I also put together while in Redmond. Do you ever stop to think that you know merely a small fraction of anything you speak to either in software design or community?

You're goddamned right my actions speak for themselves. You're trolling a community that my actions helped carve out of sheer resistance over many years. And if the people in that community now had the same courage that it took to build a foundation for it before it was cool, they'd kick your intellectually-lethargic, fat ass to the curb.
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# re: I think this means I won
jdn
9/9/2008 7:29 AM
@Scott

I'm sure you actually believe that. Funny.

Good luck with the '1st annual metastones tournament' meeting.
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# re: I think this means I won
jdn
9/9/2008 9:54 AM
@MNike

Is Norm.Net where everybody knows your name?
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# re: I think this means I won
Casey
9/30/2008 2:49 PM
A quite brillaint post, made all the more funny by some of the comments ... fear not, the alt.net mailing list is free of tyranny and despotism now ... I think you may actually have to murder someone to be removed forcibly from it - until that point, all opinions are welcome and valued, however phrased or interpreted.

And if that isn't what alt.net is all about - then I have no idea what it *is* about!

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